The advocates of wealth redistribution typically fail to note that despite the vast gulfs between the rich and the poor in this nation (or even between the rich and the middle-class), more people are comfortably well-off than ever before. If it’s true that money isn’t everything, what does it matter that someone else has billions, if you have enough to live comfortably, eat well, and have fun on the weekend? At the risk of sounding trite, I think the last century in this country has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a rising tide really does life all boats.

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28 Comments

  1. While…

    I am someone who will definitely say that things today are a hell of a lot better than they were in the 19th century (or any time before that…) something that might be noted is that most of the gains that pushed all of these people into the middle class occurred between 1945-1973… It was during that period of high taxes, strong union employment, and massive gov’t spending that the average real wage of people increased the most. Since that time, beginning with the oil shock of 73-74, that real average wages have consistently declined while the salaries of the top quintile have sky-rocketed. I can go find numbers for you, if you would like… (note it was also during that period that a lot of the infrastructure of the US was built like the highway systems…)

    In the end, I do note that today, the average American is far better off than they were 100 years ago.. However, I don’t see the current situation as ideal… In the richest country in the world, how many people don’t have any health insurance?? The Poverty rate here is how high compared to all of those poorer countries like Sweden??
    Just because we don’t suck, doesn’t mean we cannot do better… Also.. looking at snapshots is not as informative as looking at trends… Today, high paying GM jobs–formerly the US’s largest employer with starting wages of $18/hr with health care–are being replaced by Wal-Mart jobs–currently the US’s largest employer with $8/hr with no benefits–and while part of this is due to the Market forces–I might note someone did a calculation and if Wal-Mart were to only raise its prices across the board by %12, it could pay all of its two million employees $25/hr…. and I can tell you.. walmart’s prices are generally so far below any of the small town business competitors prices that it could afford this…

    Now since that–a $25/hr salary–would even increase the number of people who are well-off.. wouldn’t you support it??

    So.. here’s an advocate of constructing a more egalitarian oriented system (probably an advocate of wealth redistribution in your book) who does note all this stuff.. but still thinks that we can do better.. (and have done better in the past…)

    also.. the rising tide analogy only works so far.. a more accurate addition to the picture would be to note that those with crappy boats with holes in them have only risen because they strain mightily not to sink.. and often their heads are just above the rising water (while others are actually now in giant hydrofoils racing around).. and if those with crappy boats, for whatever reason, are unfortunate enough to spring another leak, well, then, they just sink under the surface.. and nobody notices them anymore… they don’t get counted…

    So.. perhaps a rising tide, that swells over the corpses of those less fortunate…

    1. Re: While…

      I keep coming back to the fact that the “poor” people I’ve known in this country (with the exception of street-people who were mentally incapable of supporting themselves) were all rich by the standards of people I’d seen in India. Doesn’t mean they weren’t working their asses off in order to stay affloat; doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like to see them doing better. But it’s not poverty like a lot of the world defines poverty.

      I don’t know enough about Wal-Mart’s practices to say if I consider them a paragon of decency, but in general I support the proliferation of “gateway” jobs which let people newly entering or re-entering the workforce get a foot in the door with a minimum barrier to entry. Where others see a miserable place to build a career, I see a stepping-stone to better things. Which would seem to mesh well with Wal-Mart’s high turnover.

      Sweden may not be the best example to use. What is more notable in that article than the absolute income comparison – after all, quality of life != income – is the discussion of why their system is getting worse, rather than better.

      I wonder if you think that, by posting this kind of thing, I’m saying that things are hunky-dory? Because I assure you that’s not my intent. Rather, it’s my contention that things are getting better, rather than worse. From my layman’s extrapolation of the trends, the future I see is of the poor being gradually absorbed into the mass of the middle class as wealth proliferates and technology renders makes poduction more and more efficient.

      1. again..

        A few things..

        I looked at your Sweden article–and reading through it–it makes the point that swedes are not getting fabulously wealthy–but does make the point that even the poorest parts of stockholm are fare more livable than most parts of large cities in America–and they all have health care…
        Overall–I don’t think Sweden is the right model either–in fact I think it is over-socialized… A better comparison would be with Denmark–but even better than that would be the Netherlands… a huge capitalist economy with low unemployment, higher taxes, and higher benefits for most everyone… Yes, they have some problems (and they are the kinds of problems that the US has..) but their scale–both relative and absolute–are far smaller than ours..

        As for Wal-mart–their practices are downright atrocious.. and most of the time, their positions are not generally gate-way jobs… Perhaps in large cities (where Walmarts are not all that common anyway…) they might serve as gateway jobs for teenagers.. but in most of the small towns where they are popping up–they actually tend to destroy the down-town area–where small-businesses acted as middle-class incomes with positions for teenagers–and create “gateway Jobs” for everyone–including those people that used to have richer jobs…
        Walmart also uses a lot of deceptive marketing about their workforce–i.e. they claim that 70% of their workforce is employed full-time.. but by that they mean 28 hours a week or more–and 28 hours/week at $8/hr is not a lot to live on…

        As for high-turnover–I agree.. it could mesh with your theory.. but I’ve known people who worked at wal-mart.. and I’ve talked to people who work there–and they say the corporation sucks… a good friend basically got fired for minute infractions (being a minute late) because he had been there 3+ years, and instead of dealing with the fact that they might have to give him a raise.. they got rid of him…

        I’m not saying that all huge discount places suck… or that something like Wal-mart has to suck.. but I am saying that how Wal-mart currently operates (like the internal memos that told Store managers to illegally alter time-sheets so that employees wouldn’t even get paid for the hours they did work) is awful…

        As for the final point.. I think your perspective is missing the finer gradation.. If you look at most economic analyses of the US.. between 1930-1970, things got better for the majority of people.. A greater percentage of the populace moved up into the middle class than ever before… Since that time, however, things have stagnated for the majority of people, while getting extremely good for a small group… Thus, while since 1900, things have gotten better for the majority overall.. i seriously believe that if we continue on the path that we are currently on, that we will see regression…
        Yes.. everyone may now own a tv.. but the number of people who end up in modern versions of debtor’s prison (since bankruptcy laws are being changed to make personal bankruptcies fairly hard to get) will increase…

        Also.. the US overall is slipping.. When the dollar crashes finally–because the Chinese and Japanese decide that they just don’t want to fund our habits anymore–and/or interest rates spike, bankrupting all those americans with huge credit card debt–then we might begin to see a real decline in living standards here…

        Am I being a bit apocalyptic here.. yes.. and I don’t nec. believe that all of these things will happen.. but I am worried that if we don’t start getting our house in order financially–either by cutting all the programs that hardly anyone really wants to see go–like the military and social security and medicare–or raising taxes–then we are likely to encounter a big mess rather soon…

        did I mention that oil prices are going to rise soon.. 😉 that petroleum geologists employed by companies like exxon and shell have stated publicly that we are passing the half-way point in terms of the consumption of all the oil on the planet and that from now on out.. prices will increase dramatically??
        Get your hybrid now.. because it’s gonna get a lot nastier before it gets better…

        1. Wal-Mart

          One of these days I do need to do a careful study of Wal-Mart’s business practices and determine if I want to be giving them my money. But a lot of the problems people cite just don’t strike me as problems. It’s sad that your friend got fired, but I don’t see that as necessarily a bad business practice. Some companies put a premium on experience and loyalty and are willing to pay top-dollar for it. Others don’t. Since I can’t imagine why anyone would want to build a career at Wal-Mart, I don’t have a problem with a policy which pushes out the long-timers. While I respect any company which makes job security a top priority, I don’t see it as a universal obligation. Some fields are volatile and bottom-line-oriented. Either you learn to live with change (if the money’s good), or you work towards moving into a different field.

          Part of why I don’t get the whole Wal-Mart hatred phenomenon is that I *live* in the stereotypical small town with a big wal-mart, and if anything it’s improved the area. Main street was already dead, where dead=nothing but antique stores. Great for Sunday antiquers, lousy for teenagers who need a summer job. The Wal-Mart anchorrs a strip mall which contains a Pier 1, a very good sushi joint(!), and various other restaurants, salons, and shops. This seems like a net plus for the local economy, employment, and quality of life.

          Like I said, if I saw proof that they were consistently underhanded, and I heard confirmation from locals, I’d consider boycotting them on moral principles; but as it is I’m not seeing the down side.

          1. I have a few articles..

            about Wal-Mart that really cemented our decision never to shop there again. Specifically, what set me off was how wal-mart managers were pushed to delete hours from worker’s timecards in a systematic fashion, so that labor costs would be held down–thus assuring high enough profit margins for the stores…

            I mean.. okay.. if you are going to offer low wage jobs–that’s one thing–and I can see that as a gate-way phenomenon.. I worked a minimum wage job as a teen-ager in a small-business–so I know that it’s not like small-businesses are nec. better than huge super-stores…

            But not even paying the workers for the time they worked.. that is basically theft–and it was corporately directed theft..

            Of course–on the practical side–I have options here that you might not. Now we shop at Target–where prices are a bit higher (but so is the quality)–so we cannot afford as much materially as we could at Wal-hell.. err.. I mean Mart.. ;)))

            And perhaps–in the grander scheme of things–things like Wal-mart were needed to shake up Main street. I admit that when I drive through super-small towns here in Wisconsin–and you drive along Main-street.. it looks like crap–and I also get rather fed up with My professors pushing “Support your corner Drug-store” where you pay 50% more for products than at wal-mart–something that such professors, who make 700% more than me can afford…

            So I understand your point.. Maybe if a Myers superstore or a Target were to open up.. then you should think about doing that careful study.. but if you really have few other options.. then it might not really help you practically..

          2. Re: I have a few articles..

            There’s a target in York (~25-30 minutes away, as opposed to the Wal-Mart which is within short walking distance); and I do prefer it for some things; but as you say, it’s a little pricier. Plus the variety of stuff available is smaller. E.g. I don’t recall Target having a substantial hardware section.

            I’d be interested in those articles, if any can be found online.

          3. Re: I have a few articles..

            There’s a target in York (~25-30 minutes away, as opposed to the Wal-Mart which is within short walking distance); and I do prefer it for some things; but as you say, it’s a little pricier. Plus the variety of stuff available is smaller. E.g. I don’t recall Target having a substantial hardware section.

            I’d be interested in those articles, if any can be found online.

          4. I have a few articles..

            about Wal-Mart that really cemented our decision never to shop there again. Specifically, what set me off was how wal-mart managers were pushed to delete hours from worker’s timecards in a systematic fashion, so that labor costs would be held down–thus assuring high enough profit margins for the stores…

            I mean.. okay.. if you are going to offer low wage jobs–that’s one thing–and I can see that as a gate-way phenomenon.. I worked a minimum wage job as a teen-ager in a small-business–so I know that it’s not like small-businesses are nec. better than huge super-stores…

            But not even paying the workers for the time they worked.. that is basically theft–and it was corporately directed theft..

            Of course–on the practical side–I have options here that you might not. Now we shop at Target–where prices are a bit higher (but so is the quality)–so we cannot afford as much materially as we could at Wal-hell.. err.. I mean Mart.. ;)))

            And perhaps–in the grander scheme of things–things like Wal-mart were needed to shake up Main street. I admit that when I drive through super-small towns here in Wisconsin–and you drive along Main-street.. it looks like crap–and I also get rather fed up with My professors pushing “Support your corner Drug-store” where you pay 50% more for products than at wal-mart–something that such professors, who make 700% more than me can afford…

            So I understand your point.. Maybe if a Myers superstore or a Target were to open up.. then you should think about doing that careful study.. but if you really have few other options.. then it might not really help you practically..

        2. Wal-Mart

          One of these days I do need to do a careful study of Wal-Mart’s business practices and determine if I want to be giving them my money. But a lot of the problems people cite just don’t strike me as problems. It’s sad that your friend got fired, but I don’t see that as necessarily a bad business practice. Some companies put a premium on experience and loyalty and are willing to pay top-dollar for it. Others don’t. Since I can’t imagine why anyone would want to build a career at Wal-Mart, I don’t have a problem with a policy which pushes out the long-timers. While I respect any company which makes job security a top priority, I don’t see it as a universal obligation. Some fields are volatile and bottom-line-oriented. Either you learn to live with change (if the money’s good), or you work towards moving into a different field.

          Part of why I don’t get the whole Wal-Mart hatred phenomenon is that I *live* in the stereotypical small town with a big wal-mart, and if anything it’s improved the area. Main street was already dead, where dead=nothing but antique stores. Great for Sunday antiquers, lousy for teenagers who need a summer job. The Wal-Mart anchorrs a strip mall which contains a Pier 1, a very good sushi joint(!), and various other restaurants, salons, and shops. This seems like a net plus for the local economy, employment, and quality of life.

          Like I said, if I saw proof that they were consistently underhanded, and I heard confirmation from locals, I’d consider boycotting them on moral principles; but as it is I’m not seeing the down side.

      2. again..

        A few things..

        I looked at your Sweden article–and reading through it–it makes the point that swedes are not getting fabulously wealthy–but does make the point that even the poorest parts of stockholm are fare more livable than most parts of large cities in America–and they all have health care…
        Overall–I don’t think Sweden is the right model either–in fact I think it is over-socialized… A better comparison would be with Denmark–but even better than that would be the Netherlands… a huge capitalist economy with low unemployment, higher taxes, and higher benefits for most everyone… Yes, they have some problems (and they are the kinds of problems that the US has..) but their scale–both relative and absolute–are far smaller than ours..

        As for Wal-mart–their practices are downright atrocious.. and most of the time, their positions are not generally gate-way jobs… Perhaps in large cities (where Walmarts are not all that common anyway…) they might serve as gateway jobs for teenagers.. but in most of the small towns where they are popping up–they actually tend to destroy the down-town area–where small-businesses acted as middle-class incomes with positions for teenagers–and create “gateway Jobs” for everyone–including those people that used to have richer jobs…
        Walmart also uses a lot of deceptive marketing about their workforce–i.e. they claim that 70% of their workforce is employed full-time.. but by that they mean 28 hours a week or more–and 28 hours/week at $8/hr is not a lot to live on…

        As for high-turnover–I agree.. it could mesh with your theory.. but I’ve known people who worked at wal-mart.. and I’ve talked to people who work there–and they say the corporation sucks… a good friend basically got fired for minute infractions (being a minute late) because he had been there 3+ years, and instead of dealing with the fact that they might have to give him a raise.. they got rid of him…

        I’m not saying that all huge discount places suck… or that something like Wal-mart has to suck.. but I am saying that how Wal-mart currently operates (like the internal memos that told Store managers to illegally alter time-sheets so that employees wouldn’t even get paid for the hours they did work) is awful…

        As for the final point.. I think your perspective is missing the finer gradation.. If you look at most economic analyses of the US.. between 1930-1970, things got better for the majority of people.. A greater percentage of the populace moved up into the middle class than ever before… Since that time, however, things have stagnated for the majority of people, while getting extremely good for a small group… Thus, while since 1900, things have gotten better for the majority overall.. i seriously believe that if we continue on the path that we are currently on, that we will see regression…
        Yes.. everyone may now own a tv.. but the number of people who end up in modern versions of debtor’s prison (since bankruptcy laws are being changed to make personal bankruptcies fairly hard to get) will increase…

        Also.. the US overall is slipping.. When the dollar crashes finally–because the Chinese and Japanese decide that they just don’t want to fund our habits anymore–and/or interest rates spike, bankrupting all those americans with huge credit card debt–then we might begin to see a real decline in living standards here…

        Am I being a bit apocalyptic here.. yes.. and I don’t nec. believe that all of these things will happen.. but I am worried that if we don’t start getting our house in order financially–either by cutting all the programs that hardly anyone really wants to see go–like the military and social security and medicare–or raising taxes–then we are likely to encounter a big mess rather soon…

        did I mention that oil prices are going to rise soon.. 😉 that petroleum geologists employed by companies like exxon and shell have stated publicly that we are passing the half-way point in terms of the consumption of all the oil on the planet and that from now on out.. prices will increase dramatically??
        Get your hybrid now.. because it’s gonna get a lot nastier before it gets better…

    2. Re: While…

      I keep coming back to the fact that the “poor” people I’ve known in this country (with the exception of street-people who were mentally incapable of supporting themselves) were all rich by the standards of people I’d seen in India. Doesn’t mean they weren’t working their asses off in order to stay affloat; doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like to see them doing better. But it’s not poverty like a lot of the world defines poverty.

      I don’t know enough about Wal-Mart’s practices to say if I consider them a paragon of decency, but in general I support the proliferation of “gateway” jobs which let people newly entering or re-entering the workforce get a foot in the door with a minimum barrier to entry. Where others see a miserable place to build a career, I see a stepping-stone to better things. Which would seem to mesh well with Wal-Mart’s high turnover.

      Sweden may not be the best example to use. What is more notable in that article than the absolute income comparison – after all, quality of life != income – is the discussion of why their system is getting worse, rather than better.

      I wonder if you think that, by posting this kind of thing, I’m saying that things are hunky-dory? Because I assure you that’s not my intent. Rather, it’s my contention that things are getting better, rather than worse. From my layman’s extrapolation of the trends, the future I see is of the poor being gradually absorbed into the mass of the middle class as wealth proliferates and technology renders makes poduction more and more efficient.

    3. Re: While…

      correlation is not causation. without the ridiculous taxation we had, things would have gotten much better! your analysis also neglects the effects of a devastated europe and asia … the bretton woods agreement … nixon finally severing gold and the dollar … the deregulation of exchange rates …

      > the salaries of the top quintile have sky-rocketed.

      the free market is not a zero-sum system. there are rational market reasons why high wages happen.

      > note it was also during that period that a lot of the infrastructure of the US was built like the highway systems…

      and in time became a huge drain on the economy …

      > how many people don’t have any health insurance??

      far fewer than, say, sub-saharan africa. health insurance is not the be all and end all of society.

      > The Poverty rate here is how high compared to all of those poorer countries like Sweden??

      and many scandinavians privately bewail the meaninglessness of life, because everything is managed for them.

      > high paying GM jobs–formerly the US’s largest employer with starting wages of $18/hr with health care

      and our friends the unions decimated that industry with featherbedding and greed …

      > are being replaced by Wal-Mart jobs–currently the US’s largest employer with $8/hr with no benefits

      if you go into wal-mart, you’ll see an awful lot of immigrant folks holding those jobs.

      > it could pay all of its two million employees $25/hr…. and I can tell you..

      that would be a disaster for the very people it would supposedly help. the inflationary effects would be horrendous.

      > here’s an advocate of constructing a more egalitarian oriented system

      do it voluntarily, without recourse to government force, and i have no quarrel.

      > So.. perhaps a rising tide, that swells over the corpses of those less fortunate…

      a true free-market (not the bullshit mercantilism the conservatives propound) doesn’t rely on fortune.

      meanwhile, MRI machines are here that were not before … biotech is making inroads on cancer … and the betterness of tech filters across society.

      1. Re: While…

        1. High wages–I didn’t say it was a zero-sum game–but go look at Japan and western europe–even England–and you will see that sky-rocketing executive wages are not a given–but are the result of a particular set of policies and circumstances.. And personally I disagree with those circumstances..because I think that too few benefit..

        2. high-way system–So you are advocating destroying the interstate system. You’re right.. let’s tear it up right now.. I’m sure that will help the economic livelihoods of everyone…

        3. health Insurance–Comparing the US to sub-saharan africa is entirely fatuous.. The systems they have in place are in no way similar. And as for health care.. if you really don’t think it’s that crucial.. go expose yourself to some high-levels of radiation, get cancer, and see whether you think it’s crucial.. Without your health, you don’t really have much…

        4. Many Scandinavians also bewail the vast poverty that we have and think we are insane… As I note in my other reply.. an even better comparison would be the netherlands.. (since I literally meant “a poor country like Sweden” as in a coutnry that isn’t all that hot, but still has better benefits than we do..) In any case.. many americans also bewail the meaninglessness of a life of poverty overhere…

        5. I agree–the Unions got greedy.. and they have been punished… but the conclusion that because the unions fucked up, that they are inherently evil is not correct–by that argument..because we have seen greedy corporate executives trash companies (like Enron), then all forms of capitalist corporations should be abolished.. right???

        6. Immigrants at Wal-mart.. Actually, here in Madison–most of the immigrants work at Woodmans–which is a locally owned huge food-store.. They have unionized employees and the starting salary is $11/hr for every position.. And Woodmans blows every other store here out of the water in terms of prices and selection.
        At Walmart–I have not found one immigrant worker here yet.. Immigrants aren’t stupid.. they know where the best deal is…

        7. Please explain in more detail this argument about Inflation… From all the evidence I’ve seen.. the employees at wal-mart cannot even really afford to shop there… So how would giving them more money actually hurt them?? (Then they might actually be able to shop there…)

        In any case.. I wouldn’t actually believe tha Wal-mart would do such a thing.. but would it really be so horrible for Walmart to say.. increase their prices 3% so that everyone there started at $12/hr??? Two adults working at $12/hr for 40 hours a week would clearly be middle class in most parts of the country.. and all this would entail is shifting income that normally goes to corporate dividends down to a lower segment of the populace.. It’s helping to keep consumer spending up… Are you against consumer spending?

        8. Your last couple of points–I’m a grad student in the history of technology.. I have studied how technology develops.. and far and away, gov’t sponsored tech development is “to blame” for most of the major scientific and technological breakthroughs of this past century–interchangeable parts, radio, air planes, computers, satellite telecommunications, and many more are mainly due to gov’t funding… so before you jump whole hog onto the “free-market solves everything” bandwagon.. read more history of technology..

        9. MRI machines are great–but guess what–unless you have health insurance–and even now if you are lucky enough to have state health insurance–you will never get to see one…

        1. pt 1

          > sky-rocketing executive wages are not a given

          didn’t say they were, but they have rational market grounds. when foreign-born executives move to the u.s. – they have those same salary possibilities.

          > So you are advocating destroying the interstate system.

          nope. nice straw man though.

          > as for health care.. if you really don’t think it’s that crucial..

          another fallacious inference. but don’t let that stop you. as a matter of fact, my wife had breast cancer and was uninsured. she died in 1998 of it. so i know quite a bit about being uninsured. it’s one of the reasons i’m pissed off at the government – the wealth (and opportunities) they stole from us helped make that possible.

          > Many Scandinavians also bewail the vast poverty that we have

          diversionary tactic. to paraphrase you, without a meaningful sense of life, you don’t have much …

          > many americans also bewail the meaninglessness of a life of poverty overhere…

          there isn’t that much poverty here.

          > that [unions] are inherently evil is not correct

          you exert yourself a lot arguing against things i don’t believe. i’m entirely in favor of unions so long as they are voluntary. unions are protected by improper (compulsory) government collective bargaining laws.

          > then all forms of capitalist corporations should be abolished.. right???

          are you usually this hysterically tilting at windmills?

          > 7. Please explain in more detail this argument about Inflation…

          sudden institution of $25/hr wage at walmart would lead to higher prices in lower-income areas. catastrophic.

          > so that everyone there started at $12/hr???

          i’m entirely in favor of voluntary unionization. it’s very democratic. if people are not -willing- to join the union (i.e., if scabs go to work at wal-mart, which as we know is stridently anti-union), then the people have spoken.

          > shifting income that normally goes to corporate dividends down to a lower segment of the populace..

          corporate dividends are ridiculously low as it is. s&p 500 is, what, under 3% or something? absurd.

          it would be absolutely immoral for wal-mart (which is a company of mixed morality to say the least – locking workers in, managers pressuring them to work unpaid overtime – i have no love for them and don’t shop there) to cut dividends or increase wages above market levels. its stock would suffer, its investors (including pension funds and small investors with mutual funds in their IRAs, btw) would suffer, the company would suffer … absolutely wrong.

          > It’s helping to keep consumer spending up…

          interfering with market forces always produces dislocations. overpriced housing market is an example. FNMA/FHLMC helped make it possible through offering below-market-rate mortgages to lower and middle-class home-buyers, thereby driving up housing prices.

          > Are you against consumer spending?

          no. nor am i for it, or “for” or “against” anything decontextually. consumer spending per se is no more a “good” or “evil” than corporate spending. in general, we’re spending too much and saving too little right now.

          > gov’t sponsored tech development is “to blame” for most of the major scientific and technological breakthroughs of this past century

          and guess who makes the money to run the government? the private sector. want proof? everybody just stop working. close the businesses and stay home. how long after the cessation of tax monies will the government be able to develop tech? (and who developed the tech that the gov’t tech was based on? and who made the items according to government tech-plans?)

        2. pt 1

          > sky-rocketing executive wages are not a given

          didn’t say they were, but they have rational market grounds. when foreign-born executives move to the u.s. – they have those same salary possibilities.

          > So you are advocating destroying the interstate system.

          nope. nice straw man though.

          > as for health care.. if you really don’t think it’s that crucial..

          another fallacious inference. but don’t let that stop you. as a matter of fact, my wife had breast cancer and was uninsured. she died in 1998 of it. so i know quite a bit about being uninsured. it’s one of the reasons i’m pissed off at the government – the wealth (and opportunities) they stole from us helped make that possible.

          > Many Scandinavians also bewail the vast poverty that we have

          diversionary tactic. to paraphrase you, without a meaningful sense of life, you don’t have much …

          > many americans also bewail the meaninglessness of a life of poverty overhere…

          there isn’t that much poverty here.

          > that [unions] are inherently evil is not correct

          you exert yourself a lot arguing against things i don’t believe. i’m entirely in favor of unions so long as they are voluntary. unions are protected by improper (compulsory) government collective bargaining laws.

          > then all forms of capitalist corporations should be abolished.. right???

          are you usually this hysterically tilting at windmills?

          > 7. Please explain in more detail this argument about Inflation…

          sudden institution of $25/hr wage at walmart would lead to higher prices in lower-income areas. catastrophic.

          > so that everyone there started at $12/hr???

          i’m entirely in favor of voluntary unionization. it’s very democratic. if people are not -willing- to join the union (i.e., if scabs go to work at wal-mart, which as we know is stridently anti-union), then the people have spoken.

          > shifting income that normally goes to corporate dividends down to a lower segment of the populace..

          corporate dividends are ridiculously low as it is. s&p 500 is, what, under 3% or something? absurd.

          it would be absolutely immoral for wal-mart (which is a company of mixed morality to say the least – locking workers in, managers pressuring them to work unpaid overtime – i have no love for them and don’t shop there) to cut dividends or increase wages above market levels. its stock would suffer, its investors (including pension funds and small investors with mutual funds in their IRAs, btw) would suffer, the company would suffer … absolutely wrong.

          > It’s helping to keep consumer spending up…

          interfering with market forces always produces dislocations. overpriced housing market is an example. FNMA/FHLMC helped make it possible through offering below-market-rate mortgages to lower and middle-class home-buyers, thereby driving up housing prices.

          > Are you against consumer spending?

          no. nor am i for it, or “for” or “against” anything decontextually. consumer spending per se is no more a “good” or “evil” than corporate spending. in general, we’re spending too much and saving too little right now.

          > gov’t sponsored tech development is “to blame” for most of the major scientific and technological breakthroughs of this past century

          and guess who makes the money to run the government? the private sector. want proof? everybody just stop working. close the businesses and stay home. how long after the cessation of tax monies will the government be able to develop tech? (and who developed the tech that the gov’t tech was based on? and who made the items according to government tech-plans?)

        3. pt 2

          > interchangeable parts, radio, air planes, computers, satellite telecommunications, and many more are mainly due to gov’t funding…

          actually a lot of them are due to one of the few proper activities of government: defense.

          > so before you jump whole hog onto the “free-market solves everything” bandwagon.. read more history of technology..

          actually you need to learn to interpret in a broader and less sensate manner. causal patterns are not found in specific details alone. and learn to think outside the box in interpreting the other person’s position. it helps avoid such gaffes as you’re committing in this response.

          > unless you have health insurance–and even now if you are lucky enough to have state health insurance–you will never get to see one…

          first off, the vast majority of people in the u.s. have health coverage of one kind or another.

          secondly, if the government would stop stealing value (and miseducating the populace in their groupthink indoctrination centers called government-controlled schools), many more people would have good health care.

          thirdly, go to any county health facility with cancer and you’ll see an MRI/CAT scan before long. maybe even sooner than your canadian counterpart.

          fourth, if the interveners leave the biotech market alone for long enough, MRIs/CATs will continue to get cheaper – and more solutions will come down the road.

          i won’t be replying to any more straw men, etc., so if you want to keep up the debate you’ll have to write more carefully. 🙂

          1. Pt. 3

            If I had the time.. I would reply in greater depth.. but in any case..

            1. I’m sorry about your wife. That is a tragedy. If I appeared flippant there, I apologize.

            2. as for health care and the interstate highway system..you were the one who, on both points, stated that they were either not that important or had become costly boon-doggles.. thus, I was only following your logic through to its conclusion.. If I made a snap conclusion without knowing the depth of your perspective on this subject, it is because you didn’t provide it.

            3. Poverty–My remark was flippant about the scandinavians, I’ll admit–but so was yours about them bewailing the meaninglessness of life.. Do you have lots of hard evidence to back this up? As for there not being “that much poverty over here..” I find this conclusion appalling. The poverty rate over here is not only larger than any other large industrialized country (Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy, Scandinavian countries, benelux..), but it has grown during the last presidency… While I admit that it is not at the “hell-on-earth” levels of most developing countries.. it still seems quite pathetic that the richest nation on earth has such a high poverty level…

            4. On walmart–we seem to agree–and I’m sorry if I came on a bit strong there… The big problems I have with Wal-mart are not that they’re big–but how they treat their workers–specifically the lengths they go to prevent them from having a chance to unionize–and all the other practices that they use to screw them.. I, unfortunately, took your position to be something that it wasn’t… and on that, I will admit my error.

            5. As for gov’t & industry–yes industry provides the funds for the gov’t to run.. but it’s a two way street–Gov’t secures the economic framework for businesses to run… it has come to provide them with a stable currency and secure contract law, without which, most economic activity functions rather poorly.. (like the situation in most third world countries…) In addition.. the situation with technological development has quite often been.. private firms are unwilling to undertake the risks to develop huge technological breakthroughs like I mention above… (interchangable parts is a great example–the best book on this is Merrit Roe Smith’s “Harper’s Ferry” ) so the gov’t has taken the initiative–spent tons of money on development, gotten the whole system worked out–and then gave it away for free to private firms.. Does this help the gov’t in the long run–of course, the private firms then grow and contribute greater tax revenues to the gov’t–however.. the problem I have is that this service is often not ever recognized.. While the gov’t did go through the very inefficient process of working through technical development–losing money for decades on the creation of interchangeable parts at the gov’t arsenals–when private industry received the knowledge from the gov’t, they ran with it and then like to blame the gov’t for being inefficient–even though without this economic inefficiency of the gov’t, the private firms would not have been where they were…
            That is what seriously galls me… It’s not that I don’t think private innovation isn’t important or that gov’t isn’t sometimes seriously wasteful–but that the situation here is far more complex than the standard line of “free enterprise works, and gov’t intervention is bad”…
            As for your specific quotes about who developed the tech that the gov’t tech was based on–actually, quite often, this was the gov’t itself.. and private sub-contractors who get to work under the gov’t at “cost +x%profit” are not working as free enterprise in a free market.. Free markets are great at short term optimization.. but not at long term planning..

          2. Pt. 3

            If I had the time.. I would reply in greater depth.. but in any case..

            1. I’m sorry about your wife. That is a tragedy. If I appeared flippant there, I apologize.

            2. as for health care and the interstate highway system..you were the one who, on both points, stated that they were either not that important or had become costly boon-doggles.. thus, I was only following your logic through to its conclusion.. If I made a snap conclusion without knowing the depth of your perspective on this subject, it is because you didn’t provide it.

            3. Poverty–My remark was flippant about the scandinavians, I’ll admit–but so was yours about them bewailing the meaninglessness of life.. Do you have lots of hard evidence to back this up? As for there not being “that much poverty over here..” I find this conclusion appalling. The poverty rate over here is not only larger than any other large industrialized country (Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy, Scandinavian countries, benelux..), but it has grown during the last presidency… While I admit that it is not at the “hell-on-earth” levels of most developing countries.. it still seems quite pathetic that the richest nation on earth has such a high poverty level…

            4. On walmart–we seem to agree–and I’m sorry if I came on a bit strong there… The big problems I have with Wal-mart are not that they’re big–but how they treat their workers–specifically the lengths they go to prevent them from having a chance to unionize–and all the other practices that they use to screw them.. I, unfortunately, took your position to be something that it wasn’t… and on that, I will admit my error.

            5. As for gov’t & industry–yes industry provides the funds for the gov’t to run.. but it’s a two way street–Gov’t secures the economic framework for businesses to run… it has come to provide them with a stable currency and secure contract law, without which, most economic activity functions rather poorly.. (like the situation in most third world countries…) In addition.. the situation with technological development has quite often been.. private firms are unwilling to undertake the risks to develop huge technological breakthroughs like I mention above… (interchangable parts is a great example–the best book on this is Merrit Roe Smith’s “Harper’s Ferry” ) so the gov’t has taken the initiative–spent tons of money on development, gotten the whole system worked out–and then gave it away for free to private firms.. Does this help the gov’t in the long run–of course, the private firms then grow and contribute greater tax revenues to the gov’t–however.. the problem I have is that this service is often not ever recognized.. While the gov’t did go through the very inefficient process of working through technical development–losing money for decades on the creation of interchangeable parts at the gov’t arsenals–when private industry received the knowledge from the gov’t, they ran with it and then like to blame the gov’t for being inefficient–even though without this economic inefficiency of the gov’t, the private firms would not have been where they were…
            That is what seriously galls me… It’s not that I don’t think private innovation isn’t important or that gov’t isn’t sometimes seriously wasteful–but that the situation here is far more complex than the standard line of “free enterprise works, and gov’t intervention is bad”…
            As for your specific quotes about who developed the tech that the gov’t tech was based on–actually, quite often, this was the gov’t itself.. and private sub-contractors who get to work under the gov’t at “cost +x%profit” are not working as free enterprise in a free market.. Free markets are great at short term optimization.. but not at long term planning..

          3. pt 4.

            Almost finally.. I think your last position of attacking me as not thinking outside the box is fairly snippy.. Why should I assume that your position contains any more depth than what you presented–which was usually 1-2 lines quips on stuff. It’s not that you presented paragraph-long in-depth arguments on anything.. While I admit that I got a bit passionate in my response–this position of yours does not have much evidence in our exchange to support it and, if i look at the context of it here, merely serves as an ad-hominem attack on me… While you try to couch your position as one of an in-depth reasoned response to me–initially, you did no such thing.. and in subsequent resonses you didn’t provide much “out-side the box” evidence either. So while I have tried to be a bit more in-depth in my response here–I would ask that you try to do the same…if we are going to continue to have a fruitful exchange..

            Finally-I disagree with you about the whole health-care position. I have read too much about other health care systems–and the more private they become–the less service there seems to be. Not that this necessarily needs to be the case.. In the NYTIMES today, there is an op-ed piece about how if CEO’s really got together to demand good health care–we could probably get some–and I would fully support that kind of solution..
            In any case, you don’t provide any support here other than bald statements of opinion. I can state, for example, that without some form of health insurance–the working poor in my area cannot really afford to go see a doctor to find out if they may have cancer–and even trying to get an MRI–which costs nearly $800–won’t happen unless you can get a doctor to recommend it. This is from first hand experience of my partner. Thus, your point about “any county health facitility” doesn’t hold up.

          4. pt 4.

            Almost finally.. I think your last position of attacking me as not thinking outside the box is fairly snippy.. Why should I assume that your position contains any more depth than what you presented–which was usually 1-2 lines quips on stuff. It’s not that you presented paragraph-long in-depth arguments on anything.. While I admit that I got a bit passionate in my response–this position of yours does not have much evidence in our exchange to support it and, if i look at the context of it here, merely serves as an ad-hominem attack on me… While you try to couch your position as one of an in-depth reasoned response to me–initially, you did no such thing.. and in subsequent resonses you didn’t provide much “out-side the box” evidence either. So while I have tried to be a bit more in-depth in my response here–I would ask that you try to do the same…if we are going to continue to have a fruitful exchange..

            Finally-I disagree with you about the whole health-care position. I have read too much about other health care systems–and the more private they become–the less service there seems to be. Not that this necessarily needs to be the case.. In the NYTIMES today, there is an op-ed piece about how if CEO’s really got together to demand good health care–we could probably get some–and I would fully support that kind of solution..
            In any case, you don’t provide any support here other than bald statements of opinion. I can state, for example, that without some form of health insurance–the working poor in my area cannot really afford to go see a doctor to find out if they may have cancer–and even trying to get an MRI–which costs nearly $800–won’t happen unless you can get a doctor to recommend it. This is from first hand experience of my partner. Thus, your point about “any county health facitility” doesn’t hold up.

        4. pt 2

          > interchangeable parts, radio, air planes, computers, satellite telecommunications, and many more are mainly due to gov’t funding…

          actually a lot of them are due to one of the few proper activities of government: defense.

          > so before you jump whole hog onto the “free-market solves everything” bandwagon.. read more history of technology..

          actually you need to learn to interpret in a broader and less sensate manner. causal patterns are not found in specific details alone. and learn to think outside the box in interpreting the other person’s position. it helps avoid such gaffes as you’re committing in this response.

          > unless you have health insurance–and even now if you are lucky enough to have state health insurance–you will never get to see one…

          first off, the vast majority of people in the u.s. have health coverage of one kind or another.

          secondly, if the government would stop stealing value (and miseducating the populace in their groupthink indoctrination centers called government-controlled schools), many more people would have good health care.

          thirdly, go to any county health facility with cancer and you’ll see an MRI/CAT scan before long. maybe even sooner than your canadian counterpart.

          fourth, if the interveners leave the biotech market alone for long enough, MRIs/CATs will continue to get cheaper – and more solutions will come down the road.

          i won’t be replying to any more straw men, etc., so if you want to keep up the debate you’ll have to write more carefully. 🙂

      2. Re: While…

        1. High wages–I didn’t say it was a zero-sum game–but go look at Japan and western europe–even England–and you will see that sky-rocketing executive wages are not a given–but are the result of a particular set of policies and circumstances.. And personally I disagree with those circumstances..because I think that too few benefit..

        2. high-way system–So you are advocating destroying the interstate system. You’re right.. let’s tear it up right now.. I’m sure that will help the economic livelihoods of everyone…

        3. health Insurance–Comparing the US to sub-saharan africa is entirely fatuous.. The systems they have in place are in no way similar. And as for health care.. if you really don’t think it’s that crucial.. go expose yourself to some high-levels of radiation, get cancer, and see whether you think it’s crucial.. Without your health, you don’t really have much…

        4. Many Scandinavians also bewail the vast poverty that we have and think we are insane… As I note in my other reply.. an even better comparison would be the netherlands.. (since I literally meant “a poor country like Sweden” as in a coutnry that isn’t all that hot, but still has better benefits than we do..) In any case.. many americans also bewail the meaninglessness of a life of poverty overhere…

        5. I agree–the Unions got greedy.. and they have been punished… but the conclusion that because the unions fucked up, that they are inherently evil is not correct–by that argument..because we have seen greedy corporate executives trash companies (like Enron), then all forms of capitalist corporations should be abolished.. right???

        6. Immigrants at Wal-mart.. Actually, here in Madison–most of the immigrants work at Woodmans–which is a locally owned huge food-store.. They have unionized employees and the starting salary is $11/hr for every position.. And Woodmans blows every other store here out of the water in terms of prices and selection.
        At Walmart–I have not found one immigrant worker here yet.. Immigrants aren’t stupid.. they know where the best deal is…

        7. Please explain in more detail this argument about Inflation… From all the evidence I’ve seen.. the employees at wal-mart cannot even really afford to shop there… So how would giving them more money actually hurt them?? (Then they might actually be able to shop there…)

        In any case.. I wouldn’t actually believe tha Wal-mart would do such a thing.. but would it really be so horrible for Walmart to say.. increase their prices 3% so that everyone there started at $12/hr??? Two adults working at $12/hr for 40 hours a week would clearly be middle class in most parts of the country.. and all this would entail is shifting income that normally goes to corporate dividends down to a lower segment of the populace.. It’s helping to keep consumer spending up… Are you against consumer spending?

        8. Your last couple of points–I’m a grad student in the history of technology.. I have studied how technology develops.. and far and away, gov’t sponsored tech development is “to blame” for most of the major scientific and technological breakthroughs of this past century–interchangeable parts, radio, air planes, computers, satellite telecommunications, and many more are mainly due to gov’t funding… so before you jump whole hog onto the “free-market solves everything” bandwagon.. read more history of technology..

        9. MRI machines are great–but guess what–unless you have health insurance–and even now if you are lucky enough to have state health insurance–you will never get to see one…

    4. Re: While…

      correlation is not causation. without the ridiculous taxation we had, things would have gotten much better! your analysis also neglects the effects of a devastated europe and asia … the bretton woods agreement … nixon finally severing gold and the dollar … the deregulation of exchange rates …

      > the salaries of the top quintile have sky-rocketed.

      the free market is not a zero-sum system. there are rational market reasons why high wages happen.

      > note it was also during that period that a lot of the infrastructure of the US was built like the highway systems…

      and in time became a huge drain on the economy …

      > how many people don’t have any health insurance??

      far fewer than, say, sub-saharan africa. health insurance is not the be all and end all of society.

      > The Poverty rate here is how high compared to all of those poorer countries like Sweden??

      and many scandinavians privately bewail the meaninglessness of life, because everything is managed for them.

      > high paying GM jobs–formerly the US’s largest employer with starting wages of $18/hr with health care

      and our friends the unions decimated that industry with featherbedding and greed …

      > are being replaced by Wal-Mart jobs–currently the US’s largest employer with $8/hr with no benefits

      if you go into wal-mart, you’ll see an awful lot of immigrant folks holding those jobs.

      > it could pay all of its two million employees $25/hr…. and I can tell you..

      that would be a disaster for the very people it would supposedly help. the inflationary effects would be horrendous.

      > here’s an advocate of constructing a more egalitarian oriented system

      do it voluntarily, without recourse to government force, and i have no quarrel.

      > So.. perhaps a rising tide, that swells over the corpses of those less fortunate…

      a true free-market (not the bullshit mercantilism the conservatives propound) doesn’t rely on fortune.

      meanwhile, MRI machines are here that were not before … biotech is making inroads on cancer … and the betterness of tech filters across society.

  2. While…

    I am someone who will definitely say that things today are a hell of a lot better than they were in the 19th century (or any time before that…) something that might be noted is that most of the gains that pushed all of these people into the middle class occurred between 1945-1973… It was during that period of high taxes, strong union employment, and massive gov’t spending that the average real wage of people increased the most. Since that time, beginning with the oil shock of 73-74, that real average wages have consistently declined while the salaries of the top quintile have sky-rocketed. I can go find numbers for you, if you would like… (note it was also during that period that a lot of the infrastructure of the US was built like the highway systems…)

    In the end, I do note that today, the average American is far better off than they were 100 years ago.. However, I don’t see the current situation as ideal… In the richest country in the world, how many people don’t have any health insurance?? The Poverty rate here is how high compared to all of those poorer countries like Sweden??
    Just because we don’t suck, doesn’t mean we cannot do better… Also.. looking at snapshots is not as informative as looking at trends… Today, high paying GM jobs–formerly the US’s largest employer with starting wages of $18/hr with health care–are being replaced by Wal-Mart jobs–currently the US’s largest employer with $8/hr with no benefits–and while part of this is due to the Market forces–I might note someone did a calculation and if Wal-Mart were to only raise its prices across the board by %12, it could pay all of its two million employees $25/hr…. and I can tell you.. walmart’s prices are generally so far below any of the small town business competitors prices that it could afford this…

    Now since that–a $25/hr salary–would even increase the number of people who are well-off.. wouldn’t you support it??

    So.. here’s an advocate of constructing a more egalitarian oriented system (probably an advocate of wealth redistribution in your book) who does note all this stuff.. but still thinks that we can do better.. (and have done better in the past…)

    also.. the rising tide analogy only works so far.. a more accurate addition to the picture would be to note that those with crappy boats with holes in them have only risen because they strain mightily not to sink.. and often their heads are just above the rising water (while others are actually now in giant hydrofoils racing around).. and if those with crappy boats, for whatever reason, are unfortunate enough to spring another leak, well, then, they just sink under the surface.. and nobody notices them anymore… they don’t get counted…

    So.. perhaps a rising tide, that swells over the corpses of those less fortunate…

  3. I couldn’t agree with you more.

  4. I couldn’t agree with you more.

  5. I value

    Equality of opportunity more than equality of condition.
    I assert that there will always be a standard normal distribution of wealth.
    Starting with the New Deal, and accelerating with the Great Society, there has been a transformation of the US in the direction of a welfare state.
    Socialism is the opiate of the bureaucracy.

  6. I value

    Equality of opportunity more than equality of condition.
    I assert that there will always be a standard normal distribution of wealth.
    Starting with the New Deal, and accelerating with the Great Society, there has been a transformation of the US in the direction of a welfare state.
    Socialism is the opiate of the bureaucracy.

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